The Northern California Fly Fishing Board

Ifn ya can't catch fish in Washington right now you are we todd did

Bruce,


Property has to be posted with signs for any kind of legal action to be brought against you but that won't necessarily keep a cop from arresting you if he's called. There has to be so many signs per mile(I think 3) and the signs have to be a certain size as well. If you damage the property or anything on it(like cutting a hole in the fence)then you can be arrested for trespassing even if the place isn't posted. There's a new law on the books about trespassing on agricultural land that took effect a few years back. If cattle are present on the land and those cattle are used for human consumption and the place is posted then the penalty goes up considerably. This may go for all types of agricultural lands, I can't remember. It has to do with possible biological terrorist attacks and what not. Whenever I push the limits of property rights I usually worry a lot more about the land owner then the cops. Trespass laws aren't of very much use when some guy is shooting a shotgun full of rock salt into your ass. Also, I wouldn't put a lot of stock into the navigable river laws folks like to talk up. A river has to be declared navigable by a judge before it is. It's not automatic like most folks seem to imply. The navigable rivers act is just a possible tool to us if one was to try and gain access to a river through the courts.

no/msg

Wow, great info. Is that a Cal law or fed?

"There's a new law on the books about trespassing on agricultural land that took effect a few years back. If cattle are present on the land and those cattle are used for human consumption and the place is posted then the penalty goes up considerably. This may go for all types of agricultural lands, I can't remember. It has to do with possible biological terrorist attacks and what not."

Up here there are meth people getting busted stealing the copper wire out of the pivots. Might be for that too....although everybody knows national security is way more important than farmers right?

Thanks for the info.

sierratrout wrote:
Wow, great info. Is that a Cal law or fed?

It's been so long now since I researched trespassing laws that I don't remember but I would guess it's a federal law. Another thing I vaguely remember now is that if land isn't posted but the owner asks you to leave and you don't then you're trespassing. I doubt the average cop would want to hear what the trespassing laws are so at the very least he'll probably make you leave if he's called or tell you to tell it to the judge If he takes you in so none of this is probably going to be of any help with the cops but may be helpful when in court.

Shawn covered most of the trespassing law. The property must be posted every 1/3 of a mile then crossing results in trespassing. Even if the property isn't posted with signs an you are engaged in certain activities, if I remember correctly hunting was one, then you are trespassing. If the land owner asks you to leave private property and you do not it is trespassing. If you cut a fence or do other damamge that is vandalism a seperate offense. Also the property owner has the right to make a citizens arrest and law enforcement has to accept the arrest. If you are not sure if it is public land either ask permission or find someone that knows.

Waters are considered navigable if historically the water was used to travel, if I remember correctly Deer Creek is considered navigable waters because Peter Lassen put on an early map that he had taken a canoe up the creek for a distance.

Just about every fishable river in California is a navigable waterway. If it can be boated with a kayak (even if only during certain times of the year) it is navigable. If only sections of a river can be kayaked it is a navigable waterway. This has been tested and proven time and again.

For a good quick primer in navigable waterway law go to
http://www...r/nors/us-law-public.htm

If you think your favorite creek is too crazy or thin to be a navigable waterway check out:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4QMGozRCIoQ

(I can't figure out how to post the video directly into this page. Maybe someone else can post it and let me know how it's done)

Ralph,
I don't think there is any debate about the laws regarding rivers that have been determined to be navigable. The problem is whether or not a river in question has been legally determined to be navigable.

Section 329.14 - Determination of navigability

a. Effect on determinations. Although conclusive determinations of navigability can be made only by federal Courts, those made by federal agencies are nevertheless accorded substantial weight by the courts. It is therefore necessary that when jurisdictional questions arise, district personnel carefully investigate those waters which may be subject to Federal regulatory jurisdiction under guidelines set out above, as the resulting determination may have substantial impact upon a judicial body. Official determinations by an agency made in the past can be revised or reversed as necessary to reflect changed rules or interpretations of the law.

b. Procedures of determination. A determination whether a waterbody is a navigable water of the United States will be made by the division engineer, and will be based on a report of findings prepared at the district level in accordance with the criteria set out in this regulation. Each report of findings will be prepared by the district engineer, accompanied by an opinion of the district counsel, and forwarded to the division engineer for final determination. Each report of findings will be based substantially on applicable portions of the format in paragraph (c) of this section.

The c. portion of this section justs outlines the format that needs to be used to report findings and it's kinda long so I left it out.

I know there is a list of rivers declared to be navigable somewhere but I can't find it and my head is starting to hurt. Here is a list of rivers that have been declared Non-navigable though.

http://www...pter1_subchapterii_.html

I don't know why that whole link didn't show up. It seems to work though even though a lot of the addy is missing. Just incase it doesn't work for others I'll try again

http://www...pter1_subchapterii_.html

It seems pretty simple to read the Fish and Game Code. It used to be quoted in the free regulations and maybe it still is. 2016. Fish & Game Code: Lands enclosed, posted, or under cultivation tells me that if it is fenced (enclosed), posted, or under cultivation, you need written permission. I got my CA hunting license when I was 9 years old (50 years ago) and I even knew the rules then. Landowners are especially suspicious of trespassers now because of all the tweakers who steal everything they own over and over again.